Thai Boxers Part 3

This will be one more long section which will finish the article but I have noticed less of you are reading this article but I think it should be put up to get the complete read. I intended to add the posts in two more sections, where tempers took over and insults started, I hoped you may see the splits that started at that point. I will leave it up to you if you want to continue this post or not. Let me know. I changed nothing, this is what took place.

****************************************************************************************************

From the International Kung-Fu San Soo Association Newsletter; volume 2, issue 4 (December 1995)

Scott Hipp wrote:
San Soo Fighters vs. Thai Kick Boxers

Part 1: The Challenge and the Training

(It was 1975.) I was a green belt and had been studying San Soo for about a year. Already it was indoctrinated into me that San Soo artists did not enter competitions. It was at this time that I began hearing rumors of a competition between a group of San Soo Fighters and a group of Thai Kick Boxers. Details were sketchy, and do to the nature of the event it was being kept very low key. What I gleaned at the time was that it would be held in Bangkok, Thailand because there would be no rules and the match would be illegal in the United States of America.

Shortly after hearing the first rumors, it became necessary for me to leave San Soo for a couple of years. When I returned and inquired about this event no one knew what I was talking about. Over the years I was able to obtain very little information except for the fact the competition never happened.

(Present day, 1995.) While visiting the La Habra San Soo school I discovered an old photograph on the wall. It was a photograph of the San Soo Fighters who were to compete against the Thai Kick Boxers. With this photograph in hand, I interviewed everyone I was able that was involved, and pieced together the story of this event. Many of the rumors I heard twenty years ago were false, but the true story is nevertheless intriguing and stands as a testament as to why San Soo artists do not compete.

It began with a demonstration at the Beverly Hills Hotel. The Prince of Thailand was having a birthday party. The celebration included displays of many varieties including fashion shows and several types of martial arts demonstrations. Jimmy H. Woo took several of his top artists and when they hit the stage the crowd was in awe. The San Soo Fighters came out and performed hard and hit the stage hard. It was the most impressive display that day.

Shortly afterwards, Master Larry Wikel was approached at his Hollywood studio by promoters from Thailand. They were impressed with what they had seen and wanted to set up a match between the best kick boxers of Thailand and the best San Soo Fighters. Master Larry Wikel accepted.

Because of his studio’s Hollywood location, Master Larry Wikel had connections with a lot of the Hollywood industry. He had worked on several projects with David Chow, the technical advisor to the “Kung-Fu” television series, and Mr. Chow became the primary promoter of the match. Forest Hamilton, of Motown Records, joined the project and was one of the principal money backers. Even Don King, the fight promoter, sent a representative and was ready to get involved if he liked what he saw of the project.

As plans were being made, the scope of the match began to escalate. Through David Chow’s connections, the bout was being set up to happen at the Los Angeles Forum in Inglewood, California. Deals were being cut for closed circuit television rights. If this fight was successful, other venues were being discussed: Madison Square Gardens, possibly a rematch in Bangkok, Thailand, and from there possibly similar matches all over the world.

Larry Wikel began to organize the event with David Carter. Due to his size, Master David Carter was unable to fight because the Thai’s could not find anyone big enough for him. It was decided he would be involved in the training of the fighters. Together, Masters Larry Wikel and David Carter approached other San Soo artists to solicit their participation in the event. Those selected to match their skills with the Thais included Master Ron Van Browning, Master Jerry Druckerman, Master Bill Lasiter, Master Jim Lipis, Master Danny McDermot, Master Garry Moore, Master Jerry Prince, Master Gilbert Salas, and Master Ted Sias. Each of these men, when approached by Master Larry Wikel or Master David Carter, were eager to participate. Each had their own reasons for saying yes, from finally being able to show their stuff and giving San Soo the recognition it deserved, to just wanting to fight.

Master Garry Moore: “I felt loyal to my art. I realized that when I do fight, I not only represent San Soo, I represent Jimmy H. Woo. People are going to look at me and say ‘yeah, he learned from Jimmy.’ I could not let the art look bad, Jimmy look bad, or let myself look bad either.”

Master Jerry Druckerman: “I was so proud to represent San Soo; I was willing to take on anybody, anytime. We were probably the cockiest group you ever wanted to meet. Every one of the guys there was willing to put his life on the line, and that was what it was, from our understanding. The fight was to be full contact, no gloves, no rules, and it was a fight to the finish. It was the ultimate in the belief system and what Jimmy had taught us. Not playing, we do our own thing and willing to put your life on the line to prove that San Soo was the very, very best art in the world.”

Master Ted Sias: “[I did it] mostly for competition. They wanted to see who was the best in fighting at that time. I thought it would be great to do.”

Master Ron Van Browning: “We were pumped up. We thought we could win. We believed San Soo was the best art there was.”

Master Bill Lasiter: “We were finally going to get to show our skill. There was not a one of us that didn’t feel we could take them. I don’t even know if any of us had ever even seen a kick boxer. We were ready to fight anybody. We didn’t care?I wanted to fight. I wanted to see my skill. I didn’t know what I was capable of then. Especially when Jimmy said it was okay. It really added fuel to it. My teacher?I was really going to fight then.”

The organization of the event would be similar to those types of events held today. There was to be six matches, and if necessary, a seventh match as a tie breaker. Each of the fighters were divided up into different weight classes and there was to be no rules. There were two extra fighters selected as alternates in case they would be needed. Half time entertainment was being planned, which would include San Soo demonstrations, Thai Kick Boxing demonstrations, and form demonstrations.

When Jimmy H. Woo was approached with the idea, he at first was against it. Eventually, though, he began to accept it, with two conditions. The fight would be “everything goes,” and his San Soo Fighters would be well paid. Both conditions were met, the fight would be “everything goes,” and each of the fighters was to be paid $50,000. Dollars; the winning team in addition would receive an extra $250,000. Dollars.

Just about everyone I talked to had the same opinion of Jimmy’s feelings at the time. “Jimmy was really apprehensive about the whole thing. You have to remember Jimmy was always the wise one. All we could see was fame and glory for San Soo and for Jimmy. Jimmy knew all the time that you could not fight without them putting in rules and regulations. He had been through it already. We were not smart enough to listen. We had to find it out for ourselves. And Jimmy said, ‘that’s okay, as long as you fight your way. If you can’t fight your way, then you don’t fight.’ If at anytime Jimmy said ‘no,’ then the fight was off. He was the boss.”

Training began. It was taken very seriously and performed very hard. The fighters trained a little bit together and most started some sort of independent training. Individually, the concentration was on endurance training and getting in better physical condition. Master Jerry Druckerman applied to train at the Main Street Gym in Los Angeles, California. It was a time when a lot of top-notch fighters trained there, fighters like George Foreman, and Danny “Red” Lopez. Master Jerry Druckerman became involved with some of the pros, Carlos Vasaville, and Frank Williams who was the trainer of Bobby Chacon. Later, after he was accepted, he took Bill Lasiter and Ron Van Browning to the gym with him. Master Jerry Druckerman recalls, “I would get up every morning and start running 5 miles with these boxers through the hills. I thought I was in good shape before, but you start realizing the training that these other guys go through and there is a lot more to it. You start jumping rope, doing sit ups, and working out all day long. It became real apparent that there is a lot of difference between practicing San Soo on the floor and believing, when you are practicing, in the reality.” Master Jerry Druckerman went on to stress that the reason he went to the gym was not to learn Boxing technique, but for the endurance training. He was offered the opportunity to be trained as a pro-boxer but he said, “I never wanted to be a great boxer, just a great San Soo man.”

The group training sessions were conducted either at Dave Carter’s studio or at the El Monte, California School during the black belt classes. Four of the fighters, Garry Moore, Jerry Prince, Danny McDermot, and Gilbert Salas, came from Dave Carter’s school. His school had the reputation of being very rough. Master Garry Moore describes it; “?you could see where people were thrown into the walls, where the plaster was knocked off. It was a real rough studio; you really threw people hard. We did not pull much; we blocked hard, and threw real hard. We threw using hair and everything else. We ripped gi’s off, we split cups?”

At the El Monte, California School, Jimmy often had the television on and turned to the fights. He would often talk about the matches, what kind of fighters they were, and how they were doing. He would give philosophy and he would talk about why and how to step in and what you would have to do. When it came to the Thai Boxers he said, “I’m going to show you some things I’ve never shown you before. You don’t worry about when they kick. Don’t worry about the legs. Don’t worry about grabbing the legs. I show you go around behind them and break their necks. We used to fight these people when I was growing up.”

To Be Continued In The Next Issue…
Hit First…Hit Hard…Hit Often…and Finish Him Off!
User avatar
San Soo Sifu

Posts: 1601
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:44 pm
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA
Top
Kung-Fu San Soo vs. Muay Thai Kickboxing
Postby San Soo Sifu » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:02 pm

San Soo Sifu wrote:
From: San Soo Sifu (SanSooSifu) 8/19/2001 2:41 am
To: ALL (3 of 4)
100.3 in reply to 100.2

From the International Kung-Fu San Soo Association Newsletter; volume 3, issue 1 (March 1996)

Scott Hipp wrote:
San Soo Fighters vs. Thai Kick Boxers

Part 2: The Exhibition and the Aftermath

The training continued. Though Jimmy never actually advocated killing someone, he made it clear that if you were going to fight, you were going to use whatever means were available to win. You would never allow another to dictate how you were going to run your fight. Jimmy would say that you must enter a fight like a tiger out of his cage. You do not stop until it is over. You do not think about anything else. One cannot try and protect an opponent from being hurt. We might like to think we are good enough, so well endowed with expertise, that we can fight and protect them. But remember even a seven-year-old boy, or a little girl can hurt you. It does not matter what size or weight. If you underestimate your opponent, thinking you are so much better, you are going to get hurt. You have to believe that your opponent is every bit as good as you, if not better. The difference is that you have the confidence and the belief that you are not going to let anything stop you.

Master Ted Sias (recalls): “[If anything] our downfall would have been not respecting who we were going to fight, not really knowing the potential they had, their knees, their elbows, etc. It wasn’t going to be just a Kumite. We would have to wear gloves and go into that thing fighting rounds and we lost the Element of Surprise. [The Thai Kick Boxers] were already trained in what they were going to do. All they were going to do was what they were trained to do, whereas we had to fight somebody else’s style in a sense. Somebody who was primed and ready, and knew we were going to come. That makes it kind of hard. San Soo works on the Element of Surprise; it is not a sport. The whole power in the art lies in applying yourself for a reason. Not money or fame, but for life or death. I think they had an advantage.”

Jimmy H. Woo took some of the fighters’ aside; Master David Carter took some of the others. They would discuss what to look for, what they were going to see, and what to expect. Black and white training films of Thai Kick Boxers were sent over from Thailand and made available through Master Larry Wikel so that the San Soo Fighters could study and see they type of fighters they were up against. They were preparing to nullify that perceived advantage.

The planning and promotion continued. Meetings were held. All the participants gathered at least once at David Chow’s house in the Hollywood Hills for dinner, socializing, and planning. The actual format of how everything was to be done was laid out. Everything was there; everything was ready to go.

The Thai managers and the fight promoters wanted to see what the San Soo Fighters could do, so an exhibition was set up for their viewing. It was held at Master Larry Wikel’s studio. At the time his studio consisted of 5,000 square feet of mat space. The mats consisted of nothing but heavy-duty canvas down to concrete, no padding. On this, they paced out a couple of rings.

The exhibition consisted of the San Soo Fighters working out with each other and some light sparring between some of the San Soo Fighters and some local Thai Kick Boxers.

The buzzer was hit for them to go. The Thai Kick Boxers started coming real hard, and the San Soo Fighters stepped back and did a little blocking. They blocked the kicks, the punches, whatever came at them.

Master Ron Van Browning remembered thinking: “I’m handling my guy good, Jerry’s [Druckerman] handling his guy, Bill [Lasiter] was saying, ‘hey man, we can beat these guys.’ But, they looked like, what’s going on here? It was supposed to be light sparring!”

Master Larry Wikel looked over to Jimmy H. Woo. Jimmy looked back. Jimmy then looked at the San Soo guys and gave a signal. They went in.

The next time the Thai Kick Boxers moved, the San Soo Fighters went in full bore. They cupped the legs and swept. The Thai Kick Boxers hit the mat solid and hard. They did not want to fight anymore.

Afterwards, the managers and the Thai Kick Boxers were saying, “Okay, we still want to fight, but you can’t do this?and you can’t do that?you can’t sweep?you can’t lock our legs.” In short, they wanted rules to restrict what the San Soo Fighters were allowed to do. No leg locks, or sweeps, or anything that would cause them to go down and hit their heads.

Jimmy just turned and said, “If you are going to restrict us on what we can do, then we’re not going to fight.” That was it. It was over.

The money backers and promoters were also starting to have doubts.

Master Jerry Druckerman recalled: “They realized there was no fight with San Soo. San Soo was so aggressive and so quick, that the fight would be over in a matter of a few seconds. The minute the Thai Fighter moved in, the San Soo Fighter would step in and just go until it ended. The fight was over. How can you charge money, and promise a big ticket for something that would go 10 rounds, when it was only going to go at the most maybe 30 seconds, if that long? I would be surprised if it lasted longer then 10 or 15 seconds. The promoters were smart enough to see.”

The next day the promoters, trying to salvage the situation, began contacting some of the studio owners.

Master Jerry Druckerman recalled being contacted at his school: “They asked me if there was anyway we could send our yellow belts, portraying them as black belts, to represent San Soo. They didn’t want us anymore. They wanted us to send yellow belts. That was it.”

In the end, it was announced that the Thai Kick Boxers were unable to get passports to leave their country.

Master Bill Lasiter: “I was so disappointed. All of us were so disappointed afterwards that it left a sour taste in our mouths, because we had really got up for it. You know that when you get up for something?when you get up to go to Disneyland, you’re ready to go and ready to walk out that door. Then all of a sudden somebody says that you can’t go. That’s the way we felt.”

Master Jerry Druckerman: “It was quite crushing, the fact that it was cancelled. It felt like I lost my whole direction for where my life was going, because that was the only thing I was focused on. I ate, I drank, I slept, and all I did was to think about that one moment that I was going to step into a ring and put my life on the line against another man. I was going to be a tiger coming out of his cage.”

Master Larry Wikel: “It’s sad. I would have liked to have seen it. This Gracie thing that goes on today is nothing in comparison.”

Master Garry Moore: “It’s interesting that their promoters just watched us work out and they wouldn’t promote them after that. All of a sudden, they didn’t have backing. It makes me kind of proud to know San Soo.”

When Jimmy H. Woo said “No,” as far as the San Soo Fighters were concerned, it was over. He had said that if the Thai managers, the promoters, the boxing commission, or anyone were going to put restrictions on what the San Soo Fighters, or the Muay Thai Kick Boxers for that matter, could do; then we would not fight. If they wanted to go in there and fight, the way San Soo fights, then fine we would fight.

At that time Jimmy ruled everything with a steel hand. He had control over everything that was San Soo, and it was believed by those involved, to have built a lot of character in all the schools and all the San Soo practitioners at the time. When he said no, even though it may have broken everyone’s heart, there was no question, no argument, it was enough that he said, “No.”

Jimmy often talked about playing checkers and playing chess. You cannot play another man’s game and expect to win. If you fight by another man’s rules and regulations then you are playing his game. A lot of times in these fights that are shown on television, the guys jump into the ring after having studied for a number of years in an art and they try and fight another man’s game as opposed to fighting there own. Jimmy would say that if you were a checker player and I was a chess player, if I play checkers with you, you would win, because that is your game. You are the professional at that. But, if you play chess with me, if you want to fight me and do what I do, then now I’m going to win. Because that’s my game. Jimmy would say, “I pick the time, I pick the place, I pick how I want to fight.” That is the philosophy of San Soo.

When you are prevented from doing the things that you are taught, forced to fight another man’s game, then it is not going to work. You become like everybody else and your movements become non-effective. How can they work if you are unable to do them?

If you are out on the street and someone grabs you, you’re not going to fight with regulations and rules. You’re going to fight to save yourself. Whatever it takes to do that, you’re going to do. If you go into the ring against anybody, that is exactly what you should do. Especially with this art. If you restrict this art it makes it appear as if it is missing something. Then people start to say, “Well, it has got gaps in it,” or, “they cannot do anything against us because they don’t know how.” If you are allowed to do it your way, the way you have been taught to do it, it will work. Your opponent may not like it because they are going to hurt from it, but it will work.

Today, Master Larry Wikel teaches San Soo at his school in Culver City, California. Master David Carter is involved in the film industry. Master Ron Van Browning went on to a pro-fighting career, and now teaches non-San Soo martial arts at his school in the North Dallas, Texas area. Master Jerry Druckerman teaches San Soo at the California Athletic Club in Rancho Cucamonga, California. Master Jim Lipis joined the pro-weight lifting circuit. Master Danny McDermot went on to a career in bodybuilding, and today works in the insurance industry, and as a stockbroker. Master Garry Moore went on to teach San Soo to the hospital police and sheriffs at the USC Medical Center, and currently teaches San Soo privately. Jerry Prince manages an athletic club in the Los Angeles, California area. Master Ted Sias teaches San Soo at his school in Huntington Beach, California.

I would like to express my appreciation to Masters Larry Wikel, David Carter, Jerry Druckerman, Ron Van Browning, Garry Moore, Ted Sias, Bill Lasiter, and Danny McDermot for their assistance in the preparation of this article.
Hit First…Hit Hard…Hit Often…and Finish Him Off!
User avatar
San Soo Sifu

Posts: 1601
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:44 pm
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA
Top
“The other side of the coin.”
Postby San Soo Sifu » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:08 pm

San Soo Sifu wrote:
From: San Soo Sifu (SanSooSifu) 8/19/2001 3:38 am
To: RonGatewood (4 of 4)
100.4 in reply to 100.3

From the San Soo Journal; volume 2, issue 4 (Summer 1996)

Excerpt from the Editor’s Soapbox (page 2)

Ron Gatewood wrote:
An article I read about the San Soo Fighters vs. Thai Kick Boxers. Some parts are factual while some parts were things I never heard – and I was around at that time. It was big news and when we got to class we were brought up on all the latest information. The only information that we knew is that the kick boxers wanted to add rules and it fell apart.

If the trial match would have taken place we would have heard, it would have been dynamic news. Jack Sera does not remember it, along with Juan Meza, Jerry Prince, Ted Sias, and Bill Lasiter (who was quoted “Hey man, we can beat these guys.”). I also heard that Ron Van Browning did not recall the fight either. Don’t believe me, ask them yourself. Jimmy led an exciting life, his real life stories demonstrate the power of San Soo, and I personally will stick to passing on the ones I have been told. If you wish to believe that several fights were going on, with fighters talking, and all had the time to see Jimmy give “the signal,” then they simultaneously defeated their opponents, that is your choice. Real Muay Thai Kick Boxers are no slugs – they are as tough as they come, and are not so easily defeatable. I have had my say, you check it out for yourself.
Hit First…Hit Hard…Hit Often…and Finish Him Off!
User avatar
San Soo Sifu

Posts: 1601
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:44 pm
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA
Top
Ron is correct on this one.
Postby Captain America » Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:47 am

Ron is correct on this one.

There was some training for a fisticuff encounter, but…

There was NO FIGHT. San Soo people (as good as our selected fighters were) did not make the Thai kickboxers retreat in fear.

Ron is correct on this one.

I fear that the “primary organizer” of this enterprise has embellished the facts (“embellished” sometimes can be translated as “lied.”)

Ron is correct on this one.