First, I will put up the comments that were posted which I was going to use last week, read them carefully you will get the views of those involved, my comments are quite clear on what I was told and what I saw. It is long but if you want to really know what happened, read it. Next I was not going to bring some things up but when I am asked directly and it is for adding truthful information to the Arts students, I must respond. The issue of Larry Wikel who I consider both a friend/brother and very good San Soo fighter however many of his stories have been modified and I double check before I believe them. I did not see your post or I would have answered it. I am not going to respond on the Thai boxers as it is all in the comments I will include here unless you have a particular question. On the issue of entering his students, I do know about it, I was not there but was told what happened,I remember Larry saying something about putting in junior belts against senior belts in a tournament. The Thai boxers, is a different issue. They lost, when Jimmy found out he was very angry, he brought his Instructors together and wanted them to vote Larry out and some would not, I heard it was a bad scene. Not too long after that Larry moved out of state. I don’t remember how much time went by when Larry called the school asking Jimmy how he could still learn but I don’t think Jimmy was ready to forgive. When he hung up the phone he told us we had to quit filming him, I believe he feared someone might send Larry films. That is about all I know.
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Dojo Dummies & Virtual Studio Fighters
Postby Captain America » Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:00 pm
Just a side observation…
When training for the encounter, the principals did stuff like running to build up endurance, and pump some iron for strength, and I will venture a guess that not all the training was “cooperative.”
If San Soo is all Omnipotent, and a petite female can defeat a John Marsh (if she’s got the motivation to do so); as TMI was lectured to back in the day, then why did these folks bother to train?
ALL ATHLETES train to be stronger, faster, quicker, have more endurance, etc. So why do these real athletes do this for hours almost every day, but the horrible mythologly of San Soo preaches that how big, or how strong, or how fast, or HOW OLD you are; it supposedly makes no difference in being a great San Soo Fighter!
Too much fantasy by people who haven’t fought for real: too many Dojo Dummies & Virtual Studio Fighters in Kung-Fu San Soo, I am sorry to say.
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Larry “the liar” Wikel
Postby Captain America » Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:16 am
Captain America wrote:
I fear that the “primary organizer” of this enterprise has embellished the facts (“embellished” sometimes can be translated as “lied.”)
In the event that anyone is missing or is suffering from a lack of maturation or functionality with respect to the syllogistic reasoning gene, it was suggested to the Captain that I be more direct and clear in my reference above.
Okay, then…
The “primary organizer” mentioned above is Larry Wikel; and yes, he lied.
Ron Gatewood is correct on this one.
I cannot be much clearer than that.
———-
Dear reader:
If the Captain is taking sides WITH Ron Gatewood on this topic, perhaps one might need to sit up and take notice of the misinformation and outright baloney that is on the other side…
———-
Please see the Preamble to this very forum here…
http://www.americansansoo.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=4
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Larry “the liar” Wikel
Postby Captain America » Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:33 am
From the Tennessee Message Board, Neuro_Mason wrote:
Re: San Soo fighters vs. Kickboxers?!
? Reply #5 on: September 24, 2008, 10:07:27 PM ?
I also talked to Master Wikel tonight at class about this, and he told me exactly what happened. It is exactly the way it was just stated in the article I posted. Also, he has pictures that shows himself, Lo Sifu, as well as David Chow, and the Thai kickboxers with promoters. It happened.
Brad
Of course he told you that… That is the same stuff he told Scott Hipp when Scott was researching his article that you lifted from above, and to which you did not give credit to the author.
When The Captain and Mr. Ron Gatewood AGREE on something like this, you need to consider re-evaluating your position. You need to check with sources that are independent from Larry Wikel. I’m just sayin’.
This is simply one of the many HUGE whoppers that Larry Wikel is known for. Sorry.
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Because the fight never happened.
Postby Captain America » Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:45 am
With respect to the “pictures,” I think you did not see any pictures, or video, or ANYTHING where combat was taking place…
Because the fight never happened.
Yes, there was some training for the event.
But the fight never happened.
Larry Wikel saying it did a thousand times; does not reality make.
There are no participants who remember fighting.
Because the fight never happened.
They had their group picture taken, but that is about it.
Their are no first generation masters, who knew Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo well, who ever heard of the fight actually taking place.
Because the fight never happened.
Ron Gatewood is correct.
Because the fight never happened.
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If Ron Gatewood and The Captain agree…
Postby Captain America » Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:35 pm
Sharon Wikel wrote:
Basically this is all true. Maybe there was a little padding between the concrete and the canvas. I was there and very much involved in the organization. I have the original proposal and also pictures of Jimmy on that day.
“Real Muay Thai Kick Boxers are no slugs – they are as tough as they come, and are not so easily defeatable”. That’s so true, and the same could be said of the San Soo fighters of the day they were as tough as they come and not so easy defeatable. The best of the best. Fearless.
Sharon Wikel
“Basically this is all true” means that her former spouse’s version of the events as reported by Scott Hipp is what she is backing up as being the correct version of history.
I, for one, would be really interested in seeing ANY documentation, and especially PICTURES that provide real evidence that the story really happened per Sharon and Larry Wikel. I am sure the San Soo community would also.
———-
Miss Sharon Wikel,
You quote Ron Gatewood when you wrote: “Real Muay Thai Kick Boxers are no slugs – they are as tough as they come, and are not so easily defeatable.” Even though you say “That’s so true…” I definitely get the impression from the rest of what you wrote that you do NOT get it. That you do not get the significance of Ron Gatewood’s statement that you quoted. These Muay Thai (Chuck Cory: it is spelled “THAI” not “Tai” — as in THAI-LAND!) Champion fighters will not be easily taken to the ground as Larry Wikel told the story… They don’t usually kick with that higher type of kick that San Soo people love to scoop and then sweep out the other leg for the take down. They bring that sledge hammer kick more DOWNWARD most of the time to batter and thrash the opponents lower leg. Muay Thai Kickboxers nail the stuffing out of the outside lower thigh muscle (Charlie horse effect), as well as the outside of the knee and shin. If a CHAMPION Thai fighter connects with one of those kicks to your shin, you will maybe see a white flash from the excruciating pain that will emanate from the point of the blunt force traumatic collision.
They cupped the legs and swept. The Thai Kick Boxers hit the mat solid and hard. They did not want to fight anymore.
Oh Really!? When I was at Robert Resann’s wedding in Thailand about 4 years ago, on my way to Burma (sorry, to be politically incorrect… I just hate saying “Myanmar” and honoring the pieces of trash that run that country) I stopped by one of the premier Muay Thai Kickboxing training centers.
I am a tough guy, 6’2″ former Army Special Forces, and I also had the pleasure of some great training time with the Marines (1st Force Recon ) on Camp Pendleton. And I have been in quite a few scraps, to say the least… That means I was about the biggest guy there… I wish they would have kicked at my midsection or higher so I could have pulled off the move of scooping and sweeping. Instead my shins and lower legs got a decent bruising.
Fortunately size, strength, and power, couple with close in fighting to jam up the kicks and my harder punches and elbows and forearm strikes and knee strikes prevailed in the end. So I am real skeptical of the scoop and sweep. I have heard of the San Soo / Muay Thai match-up a bunch of times, and no one else ever seemed to question the reference to scooping and sweeping…
Still, that may be a minor point… but what Ron Gatewood also wrote (and these are MAJOR points) that you folks did not address was…
Ron Gatewood wrote:
If the trial match would have taken place we would have heard, it would have been dynamic news. Jack Sera does not remember it, along with Juan Meza, Jerry Prince, Ted Sias, and Bill Lasiter (who was quoted “Hey man, we can beat these guys.”). I also heard that Ron Van Browning did not recall the fight either. Don’t believe me, ask them yourself. Jimmy led an exciting life, his real life stories demonstrate the power of San Soo, and I personally will stick to passing on the ones I have been told. If you wish to believe that several fights were going on, with fighters talking, and all had the time to see Jimmy give “the signal,” then they simultaneously defeated their opponents, that is your choice. Real Muay Thai Kick Boxers are no slugs – they are as tough as they come, and are not so easily defeatable. I have had my say, you check it out for yourself.
It is convenient that the source of the story is two Wikels, and a couple of folks that were told the story by you two Wikels (Larry Wikel & Sharon Wikel).
I “know” pictures were taken that day because you said you have some. And how would the folks who came to check out the proceedings NOT have multiple cameras and movie cameras? So please, let the San Soo community see some of the proof.
Please do not say that it is hard to post pictures and such, or that it is hard to post video that someone else took… You have a MySpace page here…
http://www.myspace.com/swsansoo
And, I looked at your MySpace page and lo and behold, there is the video of Sharon, and her boy Sherman (Lew) working out in Chinatown… that I, Steve Rogers (a.k.a. The Captain) posted on YouTube on July 26, 2007.
There is no credit given to the poster of the original video (me), and besides, watching video on MySpace is an iffy proposition…
You can see the original posting here for a better viewing experience…
So I know you can post videos, and if you can post videos you can post the pictures in question.
C’mon Sharon Wikel… cough up the proof, please!
And as I have said multiple times… If Ron Gatewood and The Captain agree this strongly on something, then that makes that something at least something to investigate to get to the bottom of…
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Postby Captain America » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:55 am
From the San Soo Yahoo Forum… http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/IK … sage/20678
Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:27 pm
Kenneth Winegarner (sansookiller) wrote:
There is a myth, a story, circulating about the fight, or non-fight, with san soo versus Thai kick boxers. As we all know this fight never took place.
Where the myth is is this:
Don King and David Chow wanted this fight to go on. Don King tried to get Warner Brothers to back the event.
So…
A practice fight was set up where Don King and Warner Brothers came in to see and talk with the fighters. The Thai fighters that the san soo people would have fought for real WERE NOT THERE. Only their trainers and such.
And…
When this “sparing” session took place it was not full contact and the Thai fighters did not use “elbows” or other tactics that would give anything away as to how they really fought.
And…
Jimmy was not present at this “practice” fight. Jimmy wanted nothing to do with it and said as much.
Now… why the fight did not take place.
Don King was promoting Ali – Foreman in Africa when unfortunately Foreman got cut in training and that match had to be put off. Now the travel agency, because of late notice, would not refund any of the money and Don King ended up eating around 3 1/2 million dollars so he could no longer promote the martial arts fight between San Soo and Thai boxers at the Madison Square Garden. And then Warner Brothers back out and the fight fell apart.
I have this on good authority from one of the fighters from San Soo who has pictures of who was there, at the “practice” session and who was not…
Just FYI…
Ken
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Postby Captain America » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:05 am
Kenneth Winegarner wrote:
The Thai fighters that the san soo people would have fought for real WERE NOT THERE. Only their trainers and such.
And…
When this “sparing” session took place it was not full contact and the Thai fighters did not use “elbows” or other tactics that would give anything away as to how they really fought.
Ken W.,
Although I obviously agree that the fight didn’t happen, what you wrote seems a bit inconsistent and raises a few questions…
If the Muay Thai fighters that the San Soo people would have fought for real WERE NOT THERE, then what Muay Thai fighters were there instead?
And, whatever Muay Thai fighters were there, they did not use elbows?
So, does that mean some sort of “sparring” did in fact take place?
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Postby Captain America » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:21 am
In a private communication to The Captain…
San Soo Sifu wrote:
You know what is funny, is that I don’t know why these first generation old farts still consider lying an option. Back during the 1970s & 1980s, before the age of the Internet, you could get away with lying to your students, because most students are going to accept what their instructor says on blind faith. Now, with the Internet, and “T.T. & A.S.S. holes” like you and me (Captain America & San Soo Sifu) always searching for the real truth, you cannot possibly get away with bold faced lies anymore.
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Hope for Ron Gatewood?
Postby Captain America » Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:09 pm
From the Yahoo San Soo Forum…
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/IK … sage/20714
Ron Gatewood wrote:
Kenneth Knapp,
I believe that Robert Ward was confused about the article that he mentioned, the article he referred to was in the International Kung-Fu San Soo Newsletter. It was an interview by Scott Hipp of Larry Wikel. (I think someone posted it or parts of it.) I did write an article in the San Soo Journal, which disagreed with many issues in the article. I don’t want to argue this debate, but I will tell you that we followed all events, as it was a big deal. Since I wrote the article I was told a couple of things by some that were there, a meeting did occur, the real Muay Thai fighters were not present, although a few people may have showed some things. They also told me that Jimmy H. Woo was not at the meeting; this is hearsay to me, but I believe the source. When I discussed this with Bill Lasiter (when I wrote the article); he (Bill Lasiter) told me that one of the participants (Larry Wikel) called him and told him (Bill Lasiter), that he (Larry Wikel) was mad at me because I said the actual trial fight did not take place; especially, as presented. We should strive to present the history as correctly as we can so future generations know the facts. That is how I see it. Most of these guys are still around; let us do an investigation, interview them, and see what they say.
———-
Ron Gatewood, you KNOW that the article was reprinted on the JHWMF years ago.
Ron Gatewood, you KNOW (because you lurk) that the entire two-part article was again posted recently on American San Soo; because it is right there in black and white, ABOVE!
Do not LIE and say “I think someone posted it or parts of it.” You know full well, otherwise. (Even Ron Gatewood’s REBUTTAL is posted, above!)
I know this puts you, Ron Gatewood, in a Catch-22 of sorts… to agree with American San Soo about the non-existent fight, or practice fight… but you know this was declared a hot load of steaming garbage back in the day on the JHWMF message board.
American San Soo does not find ourselves in a similar Catch-22. We welcome your observations and reporting on this issue, whenever it is factual; as it surely is on this issue. So thank you for that!
The real fight, the practice fight, the sparring fight, the exhibition fight, the demonstration fight… NEVER took place! End of baloney story, period!
———-
Ron Gatewood wrote:
We should strive to present the history as correctly as we can so future generations know the facts. That is how I see it. Most of these guys are still around; let us do an investigation, interview them, and see what they say.
With respect to that quote… Robert Resann told us this story a few times over the years.
Back in the early days of South Bay San Soo… Larry Wikel came by unannounced and gave an impromptu presentation to the delight of everyone, including Robert Resann. (Larry Wikel lived in Redondo Beach, or parts nearby, but had his studio in Culver City.) However, the numerous and remarkable stories Larry Wikel told, seemed a little too amazing, so Robert Resann went to Jack Sera, and asked about these amazing stories.
So Robert Resann by checking with Jack Sera, and later also with Juan Meza, as well as a couple “participants” in the mythological fight found out that the multiple amazing stories, including the fight story, were amazing… because they were amazingly fabricated.
Robert Resann told the stories that Larry Wikel related a few times, more for the other stories, than for the fight story itself, as the others were at least as incredible… Robert Resann said a few times that he wished the stories about Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo that were told were true, cause they would have been so cool, if true. Well, actually they were cool short stories, even though they were “stories.”
Anyway, back to Ron Gatewood’s statement above… I have to argue strongly that American San Soo successfully strives to shine the spotlight of fact checking, logic, and truth on the San Soo nonsense out there. We are happy to see that Ron Gatewood is suggesting a similar tack, which is a very refreshing change from his usual “Ring Pass Not,” “Elder High Priest of Limitation,” “Appeal to Authority,” flawed logic position he normally takes. (Maybe there is hope for Ron Gatewood, yet. On second thought, probably not.)
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Re: Kung-Fu San Soo vs. Muay Thai Kickboxing
Postby San Soo Sifu » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:40 am
Jerry Druckerman posted his memories on this event (or non-event depending on your perspective) on the facebook Kung Fu San Soo 2.0 forum. I hate to point this out, but Robert@TMI (Robert Resann), and then later on Captain America (Steve Rogers), have been calling for more realistict training to help combat the “Pussification of Kung-Fu San Soo” for 15 years now. Read it in black and white above. Heck, be real adventurous and read all of the great information right here on Truth Telling & American San Soo.
Jerry Druckerman wrote:
It is true, the fight never happened. It seems so long ago, but it was a big part of my life. I still remember the day Larry Wikel called me, and asked if I would fight in the first, full contact, no rules, anything goes, fight. They needed a featherweight. I was 128 pounds, and it was the biggest thing that ever happened to me; to represent Kung-Fu San Soo, Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo, and the honor of our Art. I was in my early 20s, and I felt pretty indestructible. The mind set was everything: my life against another man, and the promises of movie contracts, Late Night with Johnny Carson, magazines, fame, and $10,000 dollars — what more could a twenty year old kid ask for? Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo gave his blessings for us to fight; only asking that if we fought that there would not be any rules, and no gloves, no protective gear. So with that, each fighter had their own way of training. I really didn’t have any idea what to expect. I hooked up with a pro boxing gym in Los Angeles called Main Street Gym, over on Third. You may have seen it in old movies, many pro fighters were there. From George Foreman to fighters with championship fights. So I started training, and like the professionals, started getting in the best conditioning of my life. Training was from 6 to 10 hours a day, and this went on for years because it was the first fight of its kind. I am sure Larry Wikel could talk about more details. I remember that in the excitement of Larry Wikel showing some promoters how we were going to tear their heads off; Larry asked me to put my head down as he demonstrated a Kung-Fu San Soo knee, where Larry moved my nose to the other side of my face. We were all pumped! Those were some special times for me. I also remember the phone call at my studio, when one of the promoters called me after seeing us the night before, that maybe I could send in my place instead, a yellow belt or green belt, and just put black belts on them to represent us with rules and protective gear. All that time training; all my dreams flew right out the window. It was one of lowest times in my life. Looking back, I realize that you really cannot put a price on your life or someone else’s. It is one thing to defend your life or your family; it is something else for selfish reasons. I hope this helps. I love this Art; and it has shaped me, and gave me direction. It is not about being the best, but being one of the best. The name of the trainer was Frank Williams.
