General Discussion
Thai Boxers Discussion – Epilogue
Although we have wrapped up the “San Soo vs. Thai Boxers” conversation, I wanted to clarify a few things that may have been taken the wrong way. The purpose of this conversation, and many of the discussions we have on this site, is to clear the air and set the record straight while those of us who were there are still around to do so.
In no way is this to be taken as disparaging those involved. Larry Wikel, for example, we looked upon as a top practitioner of the Art. As time went on, some stories have blended with others. Hopefully we have clarified what actually transpired. At least we’ve done our best.
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13 Comments
Sharon Wikel
Unfortunately, Ron, you spelled Master Wikel’s name wrong. As a top professional in the art, perhaps he should have his name spelled correctly. Thanks.
SP Danny
Mr. Gatewood,
*Just to let you know the picture for this epilogue post is of a Pradal Serey (Cambodian) fight not a Muay Thai (Thailand) fight.
In your opinion, why did Larry Wikel make this complete absurd lie up?
Did he honestly think he could get away with saying Muay Thai fighters would be scared of fighting san soo guys?
Muay Thai fighters, especially from the 1970’s would not ever be afraid of fighting anyone from any style! The story claims the Thais couldn’t get approval to come to the USA. Hell, if the story was true (which we know it isn’t) Thailand would have gladly flown the San Soo guys to Thailand and held the fights in Lumpinee Stadium or Rajadamnern Stadium. Why? If the Thais actually saw San Soo demonstrated they would gladly accept the challenge and want to show off another victory for Muay Thai in the Stadiums.
Didn’t Larry Wikel know that Thailand has accepted and made challenge fights from other martial arts styles (Japan, China, Holland, France, etc.) way before the Gracie Family ever did?
Did Larry Wikel know anything about Muay Thai before this article was ever written?
He should have done some research first before he decided to make up this lie. The time period Larry Wikel mentions this event occurring was the beginning of the Golden Era of Muay Thai. No Muay Thai fighters would have been scared of fighting. Still to this day, the Thais live up to the reputation for accepting fights.
Anyway, it was too the benefit of Kung Fu San Soo this event never even came close to happening. Why? The Muay Thai Fighters would have destroyed any and all of the San Soo guys. If San Soo guys (under Larry Wikel) couldn’t beat Kickboxers in 1975 at the Culver City Arena event then they would not last against Muay Thai fighters from Thailand.
Best Regards.
SP Danny
madmin
Sharon, this is Ernest Raft. I typed this for Ron while he was on the phone so I am the one who misspelled Larry’s name. My apologies.
Ron Gatewood
SP Danny,
All I can tell you is what I heard and saw, I am not going to let you suck me in to what was on Larry’s mind, ask him he is still around, Sharon Wikel has read this post, ask her. You also have mixed two issues, as I remember the fight that took place were junior belts and had nothing to do with Muay Thai. We put photo’s in our articles to spice them up, not being an expert on Thai Boxing all the fighting of the area looks same to me.
Spencer Sarlat
I was one of Sharon and Larry Wkels first students at the time at 1051 s. Fair fax before we moved to 5700 West picot Blvd. I was a major pain in the ass. I think I was suspended like 5 times.. Eventually made it over to Dave carters for my black belt. In four years I never got past yellow despite working out 6 days a week. They also had morning classes at 9 every morning. I was their too.
Looking back I have no idea why they put up with me. I was really resentful at the time. Best thing Sharon and Larry ever did for me. My dad told me before he died that Larry and Sharon saved my life. I just turned 70.
I made a lot of great friends at the studio. Had a very exotic girlfriend. A Beaty shop owner that started in the studio. I started her on her basics on her first day. Used to be Dianna Ross’ hairstylist. Also James Brown.
Sharon andLarry Wikel had their first two studios during a lot of racial turbulence at Fairfax high school. They set the examples for love and respect and empathy for your fellow man that this whole world should emulate. They both gave so much of themselves that people could hardly imagine.
I guess it would have been interesting to see that fight. I never really cared. Sharon and Larry saved my life.
Say high to whoever is left. Troy still owes me a few hundred for the parts I bought which he did not use to fix my car. All the best. Spence
Spencer Sarlat
Wikel
Just proofed it. Sorry Sharon.
Spencer Sarlat
Would have been interesting to see. Since it never happened, we are never going to know. The things that happened happened and the other things are just speculation.
Spencer sarlat
David Chow the movie guy was at Sharon and Larry’s studio at 1051 s. Fairfax. He was a fifth dan in Judo and an acquaintance of Gene Lebell. Larry was in a film called Killer Elite along with Gerald Okumura and a student at larry’s Lance Fisher.
The involvement of Forrest Hamilton of Stax Records would have been natural since Gabe Gradney his best friend was Kennedy Gradney’s brother. Kennedy Gradney was and still is a member of Little Feat.
One of Larry and Sharon’s students was Chuck Fraincis. He was a brown belt from Larry and Sharon’s old Whittier Studio. He owned a Shell station across from CBS on Fairfax. His Station fixed a lot of cars of celebrities and producers and directors. He could have had some involvement in the discussions. I spoke to Bill Wallace their several times. Super foot. Chuck was also good friends with Joe Lewis the full contact heavyweight champ, back in the day.
Gil Salas Came down to the studio several times to spar with a guy named Johnny at 5700 West pico in preparation for the fight. Jerry Druckerman came down to talk to Larry several times. John Saxon the actor who was in enter the Dragon was a student at the studio. Jimmy Woo came down and did a demonstration. Raul Ries was their along with Xavier Ries, bill Lassiter, Jerry Drucketman and Bruce Hellman a black belt from the Whittier Studio who was now studying at UCLA. Ron Von Browning was their as well as Tony Feliz who ran the East LA. Studio. Dave carter was not their.
Larry did mention that their was some light sparring between local Thai fighters from a Hollywood Muy Thai school. This was after one of my suspensions. I know the fight with the Thai Champions did not happen; so the alleged light sparring was really a moot point to me. Both Dave Carter and Gil Salas told me it never happened. I do not know why the proposed fight with the muy Thai champs never happened.
The 1975 event at the Culver City Arena did happen. I sat in the balcony near Chuck Francis and Rod Francis. I was and am a San soo supporter. Three of Larry’s five students lost by knockout. Two lost by decision. Chester a heavyweight was a black belt and was knocked out. Don McGovern was a Greenbelt and was knocked out. He had another green belt that was knocked out. Steve Gradney a black belt lost by decision. A yellow belt from the studio lost by decision. 2 belts were green, 2 were black and one was yellow. Don McGovern still goes up to Paul Borisoff’s studio in Reseda and hits the heavy bag but does not work out. He refers to San soo as your art. What I wrote is what I observed or was told personally. I do not want to speculate on what would have happened and start comparing all types of scenarios. You could ruminate all day.
What happened happened and what did not happen did not happen.
All the best. I was their. I saw it with my own eyes. People can interpret it the way they want.
All the best. Spence
Ron Gatewood
I saw this post today of someone who sent me some questions which I answered to the best of my knowledge and then this guy bad mouths me.
http://kungfusansooharshtruth.blogspot.com/2020/03/hello-everyone-ron-gatewood-left-this.html?m=1
Now, I know who you are, you may or may not know that I have been trained in “statement analysis” and you made a couple of slips that enabled me to remember who you are. You are a special kind of worm who hated San Soo and your instructor and made many attempts to hurt SS, don’t know if you got your butt kicked or it was a love affair that created such hate (you may not have been capable enough to understand SS). I remember your posts (which were sick). I have been the only SS instructor or Old Timer who has passed on the History and truths of this Art and you say I am concealing something when I can’t tell you what was on Larry’s mind, you bad mouth me. No one can understand what a man is thinking you idiot, I will send this but I will no longer respond to you, why don’t you use you own real name, why do you hide, I think it is because you are a a substandard lightweight. It was many years ago when you engaged in SS hate and you are still doing the same thing, time to get a life. Let us see what you got, other than your mouth, you are telling me SS does not work (a guy who has successfully used it a couple hundred times), give us a break. Step out worm, I will find a SS fight for you, let’s see what you got, I would love to make the challenge myself but in a couple of months I will be 80 and I am recovering from a broken hip, I really would like to do it. So grow up and try to understand that the true weakness is in yourself.
Ron Gatewood
Spencer,
Thanks for adding to reality of what really happened.
Ron Gatewood
Spencer sarlat
RE: muy thai San soo fight
One thing that really had not been disputed is that the San soo demonstration at the Beverly Hills Hotel apparently generated enough interest that a Thai representative contacted the San soo people. Obviously their was an interest on the Thai side for a match.
Spencer Sarlat
Bear with me: muy Thai fight.
The San Soo people did not back out of the fight. Chuck Francis had heavy duty Hollywood connections. David Chow the Kung fu producer or stunt coordinator was down at The fairfax studio all the time. Larry let him wear his black belt. David Chow was a 5th degree in Judo. Gene Lebell himself told me that he had worked out with David Chow.
Forrest Hamilton was the head of Stacy records which put on shows with Isaac Hayes. Kenney Gradney from little feat was the brother of Gabe Gradney the best friend of Forrest Hamilton. Gabe Gradney and Kenney used to invite me out to the boat docked in Marina del Ray of Forrest Hamilton.
I do not know all the details but their were talks and people that had influence and money were talking about it.
It is not as if this stuff is all made up. The San soo people were ready to go. The deal did not go down. You obviously are talking about a big event. Anyone that says their were not serious discussions would be incorrect. This was not made up.
Spencer Sarlat
Do not throw rocks: The San Soo people that accepted the call to fight the muy thai people were longtime San Soo people . They felt the need to accept the challenge. The events of 1975 happened after the proposed Thai fight which I believe was being discussed in 1973. Speculating on what would happen in 1973 based upon what later happened in 1975 would be impossible,would it not?
Also what Larry Wikel was thinking in 1975 would not be applicable in 1973. That is even assuming we could know what he was thinking!
Would it not be more interesting and relevant to know what the San Soo participants would be thinking in 1973.
We know that the Thais asked the San Soo people for a fight. Top highly skilled people accepted a Hans up challenge. The fight did not happen, most likely for business reasons. The San Soo people stood ready, willing an able to fight. Hard to criticize that.